the beginning of the end

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  sbender99 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:47 am

Wow am I gonna get bashed. Im scared of this situation too. However, everything fell into place for this ban and it was completely legal and somewhat justified (although drew most on fear-mongering-which is nothing new in our government actions).

The issue:
Large constrictors down in the everglades (how they got there can be debated but they are there).
Defeating lots of money efforts by congress to restore the everglades.
They tried to vote on the ban through due process a few times and failed. ( I believe)

Solution:
Use the Lacey act to ban these large constrictors from being imported (stop flow into florida)
Stop interstate trade (keep floods of them from coming back into florida from other states.

If you read the Lacey act (which I did) about half to 3/4 way down it does mention stopping invasive species from ruining local ecosystems. So it does apply. Using the Lacey act instead of due process does seem under-handed, but it does apply to the scenario down in florida.

Some feel the ban should be a state ban, but the everglades although located in florida is a national park.

Concerns:
That the Lacey act will be used for other constrictors and allow the HSUS to further their agenda of banning all pets. While I'm sure they will try, the current addition to the Lacey act was a perfect slamdunk in reasoning. Adding other constrictors will not be. They will not have the same justification for banning others. I hope I'm not being naive, I could be, but the same reasoning used for these large constrictors ban in the Everglades does not apply to others. I also believe that a ban of ball pythons or others not mentioned would easily be over the 25M threshold for this type of move. Lets see what happens.

Future:
Lets support our USARK brothers and sisters fighting and make sure that we are not doing anything stupid to give anyone a valid reason to go after us!

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  JZachary on Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:31 am

I think as guilty as some people were of fear mongering in getting this law passed, others are equally as bad on the opposite now that it has passed. The situation in the everglades provides the perfect excuse to ban then species involved and until resident populations of ball pythons show up eating native species in national parks they are probably pretty safe. I understand the concern over the big constrictors and possible bans as it wasn't so long ago OKC almost banned them with their city ordinance. There is a natural disposition by people out of the know to fear these animals. In the end time will tell but I cannot foresee a banning of all things pet, as some notable herpers are predicting.


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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  gatsu7 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:15 am

sbender99 wrote:Wow am I gonna get bashed. Im scared of this situation too. However, everything fell into place for this ban and it was completely legal and somewhat justified (although drew most on fear-mongering-which is nothing new in our government actions).

The issue:
Large constrictors down in the everglades (how they got there can be debated but they are there).
Defeating lots of money efforts by congress to restore the everglades.
They tried to vote on the ban through due process a few times and failed. ( I believe)

Solution:
Use the Lacey act to ban these large constrictors from being imported (stop flow into florida)
Stop interstate trade (keep floods of them from coming back into florida from other states.

If you read the Lacey act (which I did) about half to 3/4 way down it does mention stopping invasive species from ruining local ecosystems. So it does apply. Using the Lacey act instead of due process does seem under-handed, but it does apply to the scenario down in florida.

Some feel the ban should be a state ban, but the everglades although located in florida is a national park.

Concerns:
That the Lacey act will be used for other constrictors and allow the HSUS to further their agenda of banning all pets. While I'm sure they will try, the current addition to the Lacey act was a perfect slamdunk in reasoning. Adding other constrictors will not be. They will not have the same justification for banning others. I hope I'm not being naive, I could be, but the same reasoning used for these large constrictors ban in the Everglades does not apply to others. I also believe that a ban of ball pythons or others not mentioned would easily be over the 25M threshold for this type of move. Lets see what happens.

Future:
Lets support our USARK brothers and sisters fighting and make sure that we are not doing anything stupid to give anyone a valid reason to go after us!

Yes, you are being naive. How many yellow anacondas are loose in the Everglades? The answer would be 0, yet they were included in this ban. What makes you think that the other 5 species, which have not been found in the Everglades, are exempt from another ridiculous ban?

As for "perfect slamdunk in reasoning", how on Earth does banning something in all 50 states for a problem that only affects 1 amount to perfect reasoning? Florida has banned them in the state, and it is illegal to take them into Florida because of the state ban. The Lacey Act listing was complete overkill and accomplished nothing except for destroying a chunk of our hobby and opening up the door for even more damage to be done by HSUS and politicians who want to use our "scary" pets to get legislation passed.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  sbender99 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:11 am

gatsu7 wrote:Yes, you are being naive.
Wouldn't be the first time! Shocked

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  gatsu7 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:31 am

sbender99 wrote:
gaistsu7 wrote:Yes, you are being naive.
Wouldn't be the first time! Shocked
Very Happy

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  J&C Johnson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:57 pm

Glad to see some people being vocal on this!!! VERY glad that nobody called me names!!! I'll sum up my present thoughts in 3 words...."WHAT MICHAEL SAID"!!!!!!
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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  tandy on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:02 am

J&C Johnson wrote:Glad to see some people being vocal on this!!! VERY glad that nobody called me names!!! I'll sum up my present thoughts in 3 words...."WHAT MICHAEL SAID"!!!!!!


If you'd like we can call you names for other reasons. Just kidding. It is good to see people fired up. I think sometimes we get complacent on some things because we hear about something on a daily basis that someone is trying to ban, minimize, etc. usually for our protection. Rolling Eyes

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  PatHigdon on Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:55 am

I think Scott would have a different opinion if his beloved Ball Pythons had been thrown under the bus as well.

Jeff & I have discussed this on several occassions, I am with him on this.

One of the biggest problems with fighting the ban come from within the herp community itself. It has become "segregated" for lack of a better term. You have the Colubrid keepers, Venomous keepers, Boid keepers, Turtle/Tort keepers, Amphibian keepers & Lizard Keepers.

The majority of the non Boid keepers sat back with the "They aren't messin with us, why should we care what they do about the big snakes" mentality and did nothing to help. And even (points finger at Scott) some of the Ball Python keepers turned their backs on the rest of us. The herp community has grown tremendously since I got started 25yrs ago. But as it has grown bigger, it has grown apart as well.

There was not enough unified effort among the herp community in my opinion.

The problem is in Florida and it should be dealt with in Florida. An issue that effected 1% of the country, condemned the other 99%. If you don't understand my point, then you have no business in this hobby to start with.
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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  gatsu7 on Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:01 pm

PatHigdon wrote:I think Scott would have a different opinion if his beloved Ball Pythons had been thrown under the bus as well.

Jeff & I have discussed this on several occassions, I am with him on this.

One of the biggest problems with fighting the ban come from within the herp community itself. It has become "segregated" for lack of a better term. You have the Colubrid keepers, Venomous keepers, Boid keepers, Turtle/Tort keepers, Amphibian keepers & Lizard Keepers.

The majority of the non Boid keepers sat back with the "They aren't messin with us, why should we care what they do about the big snakes" mentality and did nothing to help. And even (points finger at Scott) some of the Ball Python keepers turned their backs on the rest of us. The herp community has grown tremendously since I got started 25yrs ago. But as it has grown bigger, it has grown apart as well.

There was not enough unified effort among the herp community in my opinion.

The problem is in Florida and it should be dealt with in Florida. An issue that effected 1% of the country, condemned the other 99%. If you don't understand my point, then you have no business in this hobby to start with.

Haha. I was looking for the "Like" button on this post. I'm on Facebook too much. I agree Pat.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  Snakeman on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:12 pm

To some extent I agree with Pat's post.

I feel there are some herpers who specialize in certain herps that have no real interest

in other species and they tend to "segregate" themselves into groups.

A good example of this is on a few occasions in the past I've had a few members tell

me they have no interest in coming to our meetings unless the program is on a species

they keep or that they are interested in learning about.

I think this is very unfortunate, but it's probably an unavoidable consequence of our

diversity.

On the flip side there are many herpers who feel that all herps are fascinating.

They want to learn as much as they can about all herps and they are very supportive

of all herpers.

Regarding Pat's other point, I totally agree that Florida should take care of it's own

problem(s) and enact it's own legislation to deal with alleged problem(s).

IMO to put into place laws and regulations regarding this issue that affect the rest of

the country as well is so asinine..................... but why am I not surprised ?









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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  PatHigdon on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:51 am

It didn't surprise me one bit Larry. I knew it would happen eventually. I am glad that they didn't throw all the big snakes under the bus at one time. But it just means that the next group to be included in the Lacey Act will probably be substantially bigger than this.
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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  tandy on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:47 am

This is a sad situation and I hope that herpers do band together and fight the idiocy that several dog breeds face and now some of our beloved herps. I know I've said it before but I am proud to be part of such a diverse and knowledgeable group of people that introduce me to new species, some of which I probably would never know otherwise. The black milksnakes are the most recent example.

Since I keep mainly natives and that one special boa, when I am faced with husbandry issues or rescue situations with animals that I have not or do not keep, I usually have the choice of contacting several knowledgeable people about that particular animal and get answers.

Not to mention the fact that while I love to talk native herps, it would really suck (for lack of a better term) if we all kept natives. The diversity here is fantastic! Remember..."Divide and Conquer" is true of many situations.
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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  Zak on Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:34 am

I agree with pat. That's all I can say. I've tried not too respond to the comment that was made due to being irratated by the comment.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  Zak on Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:41 pm

I still can't figure out why the yellow anaconda is on the list

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  gatsu7 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:50 pm

ZakO wrote:I still can't figure out why the yellow anaconda is on the list

Easy. Not many people keep them, so the economic impact of banning them was "justified". The other anacondas and retics will be on the next ban, then boas will probably get their own ban. That is my prediction anyway. I don't think retics and boas will be on the same ban because, combined, the economic impact of banning those 2 would be greater than what they are allowed to sneak by Congress. I admit it is pure speculation.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  tandy on Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:22 am

I know I'm somewhat biased, but isn't it ridiculous that in our economy that this is what lawmakers are doing? Just like Newt Gingrich talking about all the trips/research to the moon and spending billions on that in this economy. His supporters say that the project gives people hope for the future. If I couldn't feed my kids (if I had them) or afford to put gas in my car-hopefully to get to a job, it would just hack me off. Although I'm not in that situation and it still hacks me off. HHMMM? I wish we could boot them all out and start fresh. Sorry, a little off topic, I'm just fed up and don't have any hope in our GOP candidates other than anyone would be better than Obama, which is sad too. So much for trying to vote for the right person rather than the lesser of the evils. Whoever gets in there, I hope is an avid herper Very Happy.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  gatsu7 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:29 am

tandy wrote:I know I'm somewhat biased, but isn't it ridiculous that in our economy that this is what lawmakers are doing? Just like Newt Gingrich talking about all the trips/research to the moon and spending billions on that in this economy. His supporters say that the project gives people hope for the future. If I couldn't feed my kids (if I had them) or afford to put gas in my car-hopefully to get to a job, it would just hack me off. Although I'm not in that situation and it still hacks me off. HHMMM? I wish we could boot them all out and start fresh. Sorry, a little off topic, I'm just fed up and don't have any hope in our GOP candidates other than anyone would be better than Obama, which is sad too. So much for trying to vote for the right person rather than the lesser of the evils. Whoever gets in there, I hope is an avid herper Very Happy.

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I'm with you. I don't really like Romney, but he is the best shot for beating the incumbent, so I am pulling for him. Republicans don't like him because of his liberal views on some issues, but that is exactly why he has the best chance to beat a liberal president.
At this point, I care more about all of the presidents appointed positions, like Mr. Salazar getting fired this year than I do who the president ends up being. After this python junk, my belief that ALL public positions should be voted on by the people and no person should be appointed by the president has been reinforced. This includes supreme court justices.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  Snakeman on Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:31 am

I'm still hoping for a "None of the Above" box on the ballot.

If it's not there I may write it in. Laughing

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  gatsu7 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:53 am

Snakeman wrote:I'm still hoping for a "None of the Above" box on the ballot.

If it's not there I may write it in. Laughing

I agree. We would probably be better with no president at all, but then who would people blame for Congress's mistakes? Laughing

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  Snakeman on Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:06 am

" but then who would people blame for Congress's mistakes? "

How very, very true !

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  tandy on Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:21 am

ROFL! Or we could have the Southern version on the ballot-"Not a dadburn one of 'em."


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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  Zak on Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:33 pm

I wonder how they plan on policing this ban. I doubt they'll have check points at every and all state lines.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  tandy on Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:45 pm

ZakO wrote:I wonder how they plan on policing this ban. I doubt they'll have check points at every and all state lines.


I don't know for sure, but I would think they might target breeders as they try to advertise/inventory.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  gatsu7 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:21 pm

I know one breeder in Florida that isn't letting it stop him. He must have the "Reptiles Of Concern" license.

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Re: the beginning of the end

Post  PatHigdon on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:02 am

Technically, the Florida breeders/dealers and all breeders/dealers for that matter, have until the end of this month to sell across state lines and get imports in the country.

I talked to my friend Dave Barkasy from ReptilesToGo.com and he said Florida stopped issuing permits to new owners. IF you already had Burms then you were issued a permit to keep your current animals. All breeders/dealers were issued permits. But they cannot sell Burms inside of the state, legally.

I personally think that the only real policing of this RESTRICTION, will be on imports.

Its gonna be very hard to police the highway traffic of these animals. This isn't gonna stop some guy in Kansas from drivin down to Bob Clarks place and buying a Blonde, Hypo or Leucistic Burm and taking it back home. Even then, Bar Clark isn't doin anything wrong. The guy from Kansas isn't doin anything wrong, until he crosses the stateline with said animal.

And one more thing, I have been constantly reminding people on the FB group pages I frequent.....

YOU CAN STILL KEEP, BREED & SELL YOUR BURMS, AFROCKS & YELLOW ANNIES!!! NOWHERE IN THIS RESTRICTION DOES IT SAY THAT YOU ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED TO HAVE THESE ANIMALS!!!
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